The Leading Causes of Death

[Roger Kettle]

You've just declared that me saying there are no guarantees in life is ludicrous! Wow. I didn't RECOMMEND smoking forty fags a day or, even for a second, suggest that this would prolong your life. Nor did I suggest that being a healthy vegetarian would SHORTEN your life. I simply used these examples to show that people still die whatever lifestyle they choose. In short, there are no guarantees. I ended by saying eat what you like, but exercise and try not to put on weight. For me, that's rather sensible. I believe that, until recently, you enjoyed the likes of pizza and ice cream and, after reading a book, you have decided not to eat either of them. That's absolutely fine by me. Given the constantly changing opinions about the benefits of various foodstuffs, I find it strange that you are confident your current reading material is definitive. Again, that's fine by me.
However, I have to say that I found your final, sarcastic comments about my opinions rather offensive.  I'm sure you didn't mean them that way.

[Redundant]

Because it seems that the topics rarely seem to survive the actual subject header, particularly it seems in my humble efforts, here is a revenge topic steal, brutal I know but sometimes a man has to be a man, unless he'd rather be a unicorn.   I just got back from a superb rendition of Princess Ida, a comic opera by Gilbert & Sullivan.   The main tenor was a bit sub par but this was more than made up for by a superb baritone and some excellent soprano & contralto.   Princess Ida was not as successful as a number of the other operetta penned by these two gentlemen, but the quality and sound of a Gilbert & Sullivan chorus at full tilt...priceless.

[Feel free to assail one of my (rather superb) posts in retaliation]. 

[Mince]

You've just declared that me saying there are no guarantees in life is ludicrous! Wow. I didn't RECOMMEND smoking forty fags a day or, even for a second, suggest that this would prolong your life. Nor did I suggest that being a healthy vegetarian would SHORTEN your life. I simply used these examples to show that people still die whatever lifestyle they choose. In short, there are no guarantees. I ended by saying eat what you like, but exercise and try not to put on weight. For me, that's rather sensible.

The fact that everyone dies despite their lifestyle seems so obvious as to be hardly worth mentioning. But I apologise if that was the sum total of the point you were making, and you were not trying to imply that therefore one lifestyle has the same risks as any other. Yes, not being overweight and exercise are beneficial. But a plant-based diet is also beneficial, perhaps more so.

Given the constantly changing opinions about the benefits of various foodstuffs, I find it strange that you are confident your current reading material is definitive. Again, that's fine by me.

Yes, often a single study on, say, red wine can contradict other studies on red wine. Studies do this. Again, it's to do with outliers. For example, I would not be surprised if one study found fish to be more unhealthy than chicken, and another found the opposite. Again, these are single studies affected by random chance.

But that's not what you said. You stated that one day the whole body of evidence in that book - actually let's forget the book - the whole body of evidence accepted by people such as the head of nutrition at Harvard’s School of Public Health, is one day going to be disproved. Ask the head of nutrition at Harvard's School of Public Health if s/he thinks this is going to happen, given the sheer number of studies that provide overwhelming evidence. I guess you're not confident because you don't understand some part of statistics, repeatability, or meta-analysis, but that doesn't mean you're right. So again, I apologise, but you're still wrong.

However, I have to say that I found your final, sarcastic comments about my opinions rather offensive.  I'm sure you didn't mean them that way.

No, I didn't. I apologise if I came across that way. I have to keep in mind that other people don't always understand how scientific statistical studies progress. But I would prefer my analogies to be potentially offensive if they at least make people realise how wrong they are.

There are oncologists who before scoffed at a plant-based diet's ability to prevent and reverse cancer who now, given the extent of the evidence, encourage such a diet. The United States Department of Agriculture have told the American Egg Board that they can advertise eggs as fresh but cannot advertise eggs as safe, or safe to eat, or healthful: "references to healthfulness must be deleted". Read the book. It's not about one man's opinion, nor a few studies that contradict each other, but about a body of evidence gathered over decades that all point to one obvious conclusion, a conclusion that is not going to change any more than gravity is going to change.

[Tarquin Thunderthighs lll]

actually let's forget the book

Good idea.

Is this a trap? 

I actually believe what I wrote above, despite personally thinking supporting a football team is a waste of my time. But those who enjoy watching football live, sometimes as a family, and who feel this excitement and bonding and love are being abused by the ridiculous prices. I just thought I'd argue something that perhaps was closer to members of this board and learn something into the bargain, especially given that I have never understood this love for what is basically a bunch of random footballers the club could afford to pay for.

Ah, so it was a trap.

[Rob Baker]

Ohh, this is getting a bit serious,  I love differences of opinion -- but we can't all be right, can we?

So here's my two pennies worth:

I hate people who who start a sentence with ‘so’ (oops!),  I love red wine, beer, and rum and coke. I love garlic. I love the sun (not the paper).  I love my family. I love my mates. I love Beau Peep and Horace . I love comedy (the two are not unconnected  ).  I hate the Tories. I love smoking roll-ups. I hate my work. I hate cheese. I hate cats.  I hate most of the stuff on telly at the moment. I love black and white films. I love Dad’s Army. I love Eric Sykes. I love Jeff Lynne and ELO,  the music of the 20’s and 30’s (especially Al Bowlly, Billy Cotton, Lew Stone,  Leslie Sarony,  and Elsie Carlisle),  Pink Floyd, Neil Innes, Mr Bowie, John Shuttleworth, Led Zeppelin, and many more. I hate Phil Collins, and most modern music. I love butter. I love meat (except lamb).

This is very black and white and simplistic (‘love’ and ‘hate’ is a bit strong)  but you get my drift..

I just got back from a very enjoyable night out, so I'm rambling a bit and maybe lost my thread what I was going to say (the music references has nothing to do with it, but it's what I'm listing to now) but the gist is I had a very nasty health scare a couple of years ago, but I got through it (thanks to the wonderful staff of the NHS).

It made me realise that I'm not getting any younger so I should start enjoying life a bit more.  What’s the point of saving everything for that ‘rainy day’?  I don’t ‘exercise’ though I walk to and from work every day. I eat and drink what I enjoy –- but in moderation, which I think is the key.

My point is (and it’s not directed at anyone), why be the richest/healthiest man in the graveyard? What’s the point of living like a hermit just to add a few more years on your life just to end up sitting and dribbling  in a wee-soaked chair in an old folks home?  As long as you don't burden anyone else, I say enjoy what you enjoy today.

You've only got one life...

[Mince]

Rob, I agree wholeheartedly with everything you say. Choose what you enjoy and enjoy it, even if you wish to do so without knowing the risks. (Mind you, I would be interested to see how many of those dribbling and weeing themselves in old people's homes are not on a plant-based diet.)

My "difference of opinion" was over things said, either knowingly or not, that were not true.

1. A single study through random chance can be wrong or can contradict another single study. Just look at the autism scare with MMR jabs based on one study, despite tens of millions of children around the world receiving the vaccine and despite numerous high-quality research studies that support the safety of MMR. But several repeatable studies all coming to the same conclusion in the absence of repeatable studies demonstrating the opposite cannot be thereafter 'disproven'.

2. The fact that there are outliers (96-year-old smokers) proves nothing. George Burns smoked until he was 100, but hundreds of thousands of others every year do not: they die in their forties and fifties.

3. The fact that you could get run over by a bus is true for everyone - smokers, heroin abusers, extreme sports enthusiasts - and therefore proves nothing.

If you wish to privately believe 1., 2., and 3. (and other nonsense) to justify dismissing overwhelming evidence of risk, feel free. It's perfectly okay to take the risk so that you can enjoy your life the way you want, even without knowing the extent of that risk.

But if you're going to lazily spout 1., 2. or 3. in public and then get miffed when your monumentally stupid opinions are ridiculed for everyone to see, I suggest you ask me beforehand to take a week off the board.

And one more thing: can no one debate any more without someone taking offence or thinking things are getting a bit serious? I know I can be extremely sarcastic at times in making my point ('gravity'), but are you lot just not up to arguing through ideas with a dash of ad hominem ('monumentally stupid') thrown in? Can Roger not, for example, say things like "It's simply ludicrous to state that there are absolutely no positives in the school system." without others taking offence? I enjoy a good scrap, especially with friends, but not if people are going to bow out or take offence when things become too intense.

[Tarquin Thunderthighs lll]

I think you are monumentally stupid.

There, I've said my bit. 

[Diamond Lil]

Your idea of a 'dash' of ad hominemamuses me..... feels/reads like larger quantities of person-centred stuff flying about.

[Diamond Lil]

Drat... italics never go where you want them

ad hominem amuses moi

[Mince]

Your idea of a 'dash' of ad hominemamuses me..... feels/reads like larger quantities of person-centred stuff flying about.

So what? It's all part of a good debate.

[Mince]

I think you are monumentally stupid.

There, I've said my bit.

Hardly worth saying. 

[Tarquin Thunderthighs lll]

I think you are monumentally stupid.

There, I've said my bit.

Hardly worth saying. 

If you want  more (the full reasons for the above opinion), you'll have to wait. I'm working.